I have confused and/or frustrated a few people by saying that I plan on making my own version this great, physics game. It is called Fantastic Contraption and you can play it in your browser here.I'm glad people are interested in MTG Forge version 2. Not to further confuse everybody, I plan on working on MTG Forge version 2 to at least get it playable. I'm thinking around 50 cards and hopefully a little better AI. I really want to have undo and use my idea of plaintext cards. After I get version 2 working, I'll probably work on Fantastic Contraption (FC) and blog about that. I'm guessing that I'll work about 6 months on FC and then get back to MTG Forge 2.0.
I tentatively plan to get MTG Forge 2.0 working and then blog about my creative efforts to copy FC. FC will be cool because it will force me to write a real videogame interface and I get to use some cool physics code that someone else wrote. (I thought I might have to write my own little physics engine but thankfully I don't, thank you Internet.)
---------------
Well I've decided to keep working on MTG Forge version 2. My interest in Magic has been renewed. (Sometimes I think I enjoy programming Magic as much as playing Magic, it just depends what kind of mood I am in.)
Hi Forge,
ReplyDeleteI am reading your blog for a couple of month now. Since february I am writing on my own MagicTG program. Although I did some java for educational reasons I didn't like java that much and so I am developing it in vb.net using Visual Studio 2008.
Right now it becomes like a Toolbox consisting of several programs. It starts with a kind of download-manager that lists all editions and allows you to check one or more of them and just "start download". The images are downloaded from a well known site in quite a high resolution. Nevertheless downloading all about 17.000 cards my take some hours depending on the available connection speed.
After downloading the images the "deck-constructor" comes into play. It lets you browse through the editions and pick cards you want to add to your deck, re-arrange them... Finally you can save them to a .dck-File representing the deck.
Double-clicking a .dck-File opens it with the deck-viewer application. It has no GUI. It just reads all the information about the saved deck and generates a temporary html-file based on the actual screen-resoultion and starts it with the systems default-browser. (Of course this -like all the other functions as well- uses the images downloaed in the first step)
At this point a small tool went live, loading and displaying card-images at random.
Then I developed a client-server architecture, allows instances being connected to each other and exchange messages of all types. This took me months to get it to a certain level and to consolidate it in a way that it would be pretty easy to integrate in any new application making it "communicatable".
Based upon that I wrote a "Booster-Draft" application. It allows to start a server and connect any instances. Then all participants are able to choose from mtg editions already 'profiled'. After buying boosters one can start the draft and booster to booster becomes opened and loaded. Regarding the rarity of the included cards a booster shows up on all instances the same way. Participants pick shared cards / open new boosters and so on. In default mode everyone can see the picks made by everyone else. After finishing the draft you are able to start the land-assistant helping you to insert any amount of basic lands, randomly chosen from all editions. Finally the deck claims to be saved again in a .dck-file.
This is the state of development so far. With little help of my friends we are yet in progress profiling remaining editions to make them draftable. An extra tool, automatically loading card-information from the net assists us. I think soon we will be done with that.
Now I have one big application left in my mind. Working title 'duelist'. It allows it's instances to connect over the internet in client-server mode and play magic-games using decks picked manually or drafted. For weeks I made concepts for rules engine. But now it becomes more and more clear that I wont implement a rules engine. Why? I think there are two possible endings for this story. The one is a project using rules engine and never being finished or with just a subset of the available magic cards and with a bunch of bugs. The other and I think more preferable way is a program that lets you do the ruling on your own and supporting all cards ever published. It came to my mind that this is the more realistic approach anyway. Playing magic on tables enforces you and your mate to do the ruling and that makes fun, as we all know. So why should this principle be bad for a computer-based game? But of course I think it is important to state the things a player does in messages to unmask cheating. (Playing on a table you would notice your opponent looking at the top cards of his library...)
Doing a synopsis I would say it is more important to serve a user friendly, good-looking, modern GUI than a rules engine possibly making decisions one can't follow and / or being wrong from time to time.
Of course this means that no artificial intelligence will be available. And that is the main case comapring mtg forge with my project.
So far I didn't publish the toolbox for legal issues. For example I don't know wether or not I am allowed to download the pictures from a website generating gigabytes of traffic in just a couple of hours. Imagine just 100 people using it...
But testing with friends already makes lots of fun! :-)
Perhaps I am going to post some pictures somewhere.
With kind regards,
f0x
If I wanted that I could just use Magic Workstation...
ReplyDeleteAnd dude VB.NET, c'mon!
And there is an Italian project Magic Machine that is (or at least it was when the original author was still involved with the project) written in VB. It has decent AI and plays "OK", better then nothing. User interface is not the best, but it works and there are a lot of cards supported. That project has been around for several years now. The problem, for me at least, is that it only works on a Windows machine. In this day, with the Mac and Linux growing, choosing VB doesn't seem very inviting.
ReplyDelete> If I wanted that I could just use Magic Workstation...
ReplyDeleteMWS.. modern? user friendly? Of course. lol.
There is nothing you can do in C# that you can't do in vb. Once compiled in msil it is all the same, ready for jit-compiling.
So >IF< there is a question, it is not: vb or not-vb, it is .net framework or something else.
@Rares: I look forward to seeing what you produce.
ReplyDelete@Fox: sounds like you sort of combined different applications: Netdraft and Apprentice32. Thats cool imho because Apprentice was pretty darned buggy and Netdraft is in constant need of updates when someone is updating at all. The idea of basing the database on the pics is an intriguing idea...though I wonder how this works out in practice (thats ALOT of files to download...and zipping them would help but then you are dealing with IP issues etc.)
Anyway good luck with that and let us know when we can see it..
Re: .net vs something else -- I think the main reason people use Java is portability to Linux and Max Oses as well as between various windows oses so it seems the port of choice... the .net framework is ideal if you need multiple languages...otherwise why not use C++? (assuming you dont care about portability.) I dont think any of these languages is inferior for this purpose per se but as Rob and many others on here have discussed unless you take the approach Fox took you need to build a rules engine that interprets a script or data files that can be written by nonprogrammers so that you dont end up doing the grunt work for 17k cards :) Not that it would even be possible to write a rules engine that comprehensive. (but we can dream right?)
fox,
ReplyDeleteThats a lot of card pictures, lol. This forum is concerned with having the card pictures for all Magic cards, it uses torrents http://www.slightlymagic.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=15.
I'm glad people have started their own Magic projects. The hard part is getting something useable so that other people can enjoy your work.
Hi there,
ReplyDeleteif you think vb.net isn't a good choice, C# and C++ (using VS) aren't either.
I love programming with the .net framework. I did some Java with eclipse for one year, I did delphi using borland for two years and borland c++ for one year. Believe me, there is a reason I like Visual Studio. And there are even some reasons I like vb. One of them is the mess with the parentheses in C# and java.
>@Fox: sounds like you sort of combined different applications: Netdraft and Apprentice32.
Yeah, this became the idea. A full set of tools, covering the whole topic of 'magic'.
>The idea of basing the database on the pics is an intriguing idea...though I wonder how this works out in practice (thats ALOT of files to download...and zipping them would help but then you are dealing with IP issues etc.)
You are right. But me and my friends, we ALWAYS had the dream of having all the card images on our hard drives. So, by starting this project, that the images are locally available was granted for us. And believe me, it really works very well in practice :-) We profiled all the cards and that stores the metadata to the images. It looks like this:
[25.jpg]
Name=Lost Soul
Typ=Creature
Rarity=Common
SummonCost=1BB
SummonCostSum=3
Class=Spirit Minion
Power=2
Toughness=1
SwampWalk=1
CardText=Swampwalk
FlavorText=She walks in the twilight, her steps make no sound,/ Her feet leave no tracks on the dew-covered ground,/ Her hand gently beckons, she whispers your name-/ But those who go with her are never the same.
But you are right... when publishing that to a bigger audience, that might rise problems with the generated traffic etc. But this is the main reason it isn't published yet, anyway.
>Anyway good luck with that and let us know when we can see it..
Thank you! As I wrote yesterday, only the playing-application isn't finished so far. I will post some images soon.
>the .net framework is ideal if you need multiple languages...otherwise why not use C++?
Because it produces a relatively hard to read code. Because there are fewer people willing to support the project. But: Why not use C# or VB? They use the same classes from the framework as c++ does. It only makes a difference while programming.
Hi Forge!
>Thats a lot of card pictures, lol. This forum is concerned with having the card pictures for all Magic cards, it uses torrents http://www.slightlymagic.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=15.
Yeah, it is! :-)
Perhaps I will change to torrents in the future. Right now it was really the easiest way to manage that. It only takes two clicks (!) and about 4-5 hours of time to get ALL of the 17k cards :-) Thank you for the url. The guys I take the images from, have them from that forum, I think.
>I'm glad people have started their own Magic projects. The hard part is getting something useable so that other people can enjoy your work.
I started programming in february. In july I found your blog after a google search. I found out that there were a lot of topics you already wrote about and that came up for my project, too.
That is one of the reasons I love programming .net. It is very easy to get a good and useable GUI done. In java that task is a lot more difficult! (As you may experience)
Though for me it is still a very private project and as I'm not sure I will ever publish it, I think it is okay restricting it to windows environments.
By the way, I can understand why you tempt to program FC (great great game!!!) and get some distance from mtgforge. Not implementing a rules engine ensures for me, that this project won't become to big for me to handle it. I will continue reading your blog and I am curious what is still to come.
P.S. Excuse my english as I am not a native speaker.
I always say program in the language that you know the best.
ReplyDeleteActually Forge, that should be:
ReplyDeleteProgram in the language best suited to solve the problem you are trying to solve ;)
I just want to ask you something:
ReplyDeleteWhy I can't have any cards in my deck after drafting in MTG Forge?
I don't know about other people, but when I played FC I only played for like an hour. I got past a few dozen levels and then the fun of the game wore off. This is not true for magic. I can play magic over and over and the fun does not wear off. For this reason I get much more enjoyment out of MTG Forge than I do from FC.
ReplyDeleteGreetings. I am working at the moment on a computer card game, which has game-play system alike Magic. The main part of the project, the part on which is laid emphasis, is the artificial intelligence. So to see what has already been made in this field, I searched the web and also came across Magic Forge. I downloaded the code and came through it, but honestly, I am not very wise from that. So I would like to ask, if you guys have some documentation about the AI part of programming that I might see? Thanks for answer
ReplyDeleteIncantus,
ReplyDeleteYes you should pick the best language to accomplish your task, but most people only know 1 or 2 programming languages very well.
Vojtěch Osvald,
MTG Forge's AI is very, very simple. Basically each card has a boolean function called "canPlayAI()" that returns true if the computer should play that card. So I hardcode a tiny bit of AI code into each card. The computer attacks and blocks using different routines.
Anonymous,
"Why I can't have any cards in my deck after drafting in MTG Forge?"
After you get done drafting you have to name your draft. Then you open up the deckbuilder and from the menu select "Open Deck - Draft" and then you select the name that you used to save your draft. Really the deck builder should open automatically for you when you get done drafting.
All,
ReplyDeleteI have ported this code to C#. And to answer the VB.Net / C# question it all gets down to lines of code and coding standards. C# is very Java esc and was modeled after Java. It makes porting the code way easier when syntax is a bit more common. Also there are things you can do in VB.Net [Modules, unsafe typing etc] that you can not do in C#. This means that teh VB.Net compiler is handeling some of the code construct. This is dangerous for those who are not familiar with the CLR and how code effects it.
VB.Net nor C# allow for anonymous classes that are used all over this app. The challenge in porting the code was finding or creating classes that did similiar things. I also ported over all the arrays to generic lists.
The UI capabilities of VB are a bit easier to implement and hence my want to leverage it. I have all the classes ported , 20 cards, and all teh screens. The app starts up and can create or generate decks for play. I'm hoping forge allows me to pots the ported code as an open source sister project to his so that the .net community can start getting involved. Best regards
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